Introduction by Basil Fernando

This section contains personal reflections made by each participant. To recall the basic theme is important. We began our discussion realising the gravity of the problem we are discussing and the feeling that it is not given much consideration in our societies. We spoke of the legal gravity and today torture is considered one of the worst crimes by humanity. One of the things you may be able to do when you go back is to see how much international law has become a part of national law, in practice. On paper, it is already being assimilated, as every country has a law against torture. So every country has a law on paper, but how is it being applied by courts, and what attitudes are taken by law enforcement officers?

We spoke also of the social gravity. We will never be able to get creative participation of people in society, particularly the lowest strata, unless they feel free from torture. Although torture is supposedly only applied to criminals, it is really an intimidating factor against the participation of people, which is essential for the creation of a decent society. It is only through participation that people can talk about their problems.

We also spoke of the gravity to individuals. Those who suffer physically, psychologically, their families, as well as the impact on torturers and their families. We spoke also of the impact on the state. States that tolerate these things become victims of law enforcement agencies, which are used by politicians but also do many things for their own benefit. And this creates a general condition which is not under the control of the legal system. That is the reality in most of our countries. Ultimately a minister of justice or others cannot stop torture because the law enforcement agencies will resist.

All these are also posing a serious threat to the moral leadership of countries, whatever the religion be, Buddhist, Muslim or Christian. Torture is the worst form of barbarism, and yet for some reasons the moral issue gets challenged when barbarism is allowed to continue. And it is not called "barbaric". Somehow we have made up our minds to say that it is something else - but it is barbarism. Somehow we tolerate sadistic habits in our law enforcement agencies. So attitudinal changes become essential if you are to talk about human rights, and as was rightly pointed out, the mother of all evils in the human rights system is torture. Therefore this must become a fundamental aspect of our agenda. Other abuses such as rigging of elections and so on are all linked to agencies' ability to use force outside any confines.

So this was the general theme we tried to cover and we said that people are resistant against these things. We can rely only on popular movements. And we are trying to summarise them in a declaration, which is in draft. So now let us try to reflect on personal factors and motivations. How do I personally perceive torture in the light of my personal upbringing, the values that I uphold, the beliefs that I cherish?

Personal Reflections

Zaid Bin Kamaruddin

In our book the Koran - and in the Christian Bible and so on - we the Muslims learn about opposition to the voices of wisdom and truth. All the prophets faced the same opposition and torture. The values to imitate are steadfastness and keeping to ones faith, and even though you may not achieve your end in your lifetime your moral stand will be remembered by society. Therefore we come to expect that if you fight for an ideal, whatever it may be, you will come face to face with experience of grief. So that is why instead of fighting to eliminate torture our first preparation was really how to withstand torture. How to understand what is going to happen to you when you are caught, what they will try to do to break you down.

In so far as the Islamic movement in Malaysia is concerned, the fight against torture is something that, while people may be horrified by it, lacks an active campaign. The news circulated about it is in the mainstream newspapers, but it doesn't raise much attention among people. It is awareness of the effect on the individuals, society and families that triggers me personally. I think that attending here has really focused my attention on torture and the need for long term reform of the overall system. That is the most central issue.

After attending this conference I would agree that torture is the mother of all evils in the context of human rights, therefore it must be specifically taken up. Personally, I will try to explore what I can do in relation to this. Of course in the long term the ideal solution will be creation of awareness and embodiment of good values within ourselves, because no system will be without loopholes. And of course we must work within our own communities to make the state more benevolent and sensitize society against violations of human rights, and the state must be more sensitive to popular opinion. In my country the state has lost sensitivity not only to minority demands but also popular demands.

Angelica Choi Eun-ah

Before the seminar, I thought of torture as a narrow concept connected to authority, but since I participated here I have rethought the concept - socially, religiously and culturally. Torture is a product of conditions lacking human rights. Torture is a violation of human rights, lack of empowerment, discrimination of social minorities and an environment of fear. So what is important is for human rights NGOs to collectively protest the wide use of torture in Asia.

Lim Guan Eng

I think that when Basil started off with his phrase, "torture is the mother of all human rights abuses" he came to the crux of the whole matter. The forms of torture that we are used to, mental and physical are included in the UN Convention Against Torture. But I think there is one element that is very important which is not included and that is the right of families to mourn their loved ones who have died from torture. The right to closure. When a person is born, it is the beginning of his life, and when his life ends he has the right for it to be closed in a proper way. So I think this is one additional form of torture that must be included. This is a form of torture that hangs on and on, when the authorities refuse to admit that a person has died or surrender their remains. So the first aspect is physical, the second, mental, the third, closure.

When you are tortured you are among the lowest species. You are not even a human, let alone an animal, any more. So it is something that we at this conference have a very important role with regards to, to see that if it is not checked at least it is reduced.

My own personal experiences with torture are a few, but I just want to highlight two. I saw a picture yesterday from Nepal of one gentleman who had the soles of his feet beaten. This is a very common and favourite tactic of torturers. First, because it doesn't leave any evidence, secondly because it inflicts maximum pain, because the blood will rush up through the body to the brain and then your head feels as if it wants to explode. Yet it leaves no bruises.

The second point is on psychological pain, to show how cut off we are from civilised society when undergoing torture. There is a cell in Malacca, where I was from. The cell is built underground with just small ventilation slits above the ground. And just beside the cell is children's playground. When I was kept under solitary confinement there for sixty days, every evening I could hear the sounds of children joyfully playing on the swings and doing all the things children do. And when you are there you realise how big the gulf is between what you have become and the world outside. That is a very clever and intense form of psychological torture.

So what should we do against such evil practices? I think the first thing is to make torture public. Torture is like rape - it is a hidden crime; most people don't want to talk about it. We need to encourage the victims of torture to come out and talk about it. And the number of cases reported, such as in Indonesia, must be only the tip of the iceberg. The reasons that it isn't reported must be, firstly because people think that no action will be taken, secondly, that it will be a waste of time, thirdly that they are afraid of being caught and tortured again and fourthly the concept of shame. So the first step is to encourage the public to come out more, to get more people involved and make more effective efforts to pressure our respective governments to stop such evil practices.

In certain countries, because of international obligations doctors are required to visit the prison on request when prisoners fall sick. I think the experiences of these prisoners must be the same - when I fell sick in prison the doctors came to treat me; they did not look at the condition of the cell. And in my case it was not so serious, but I am sure that other prisoners have died not so much because of their illness but because of the unhygienic conditions they were under when sick. Now I think we should also pressure doctors to fulfill their code, whatever ethical standards they have promised to uphold, by demanding that these prisoners be moved to hospital. For failure to do that, the doctors should face legal sanctions.

In conclusion, we are all gathered here today at one of the first conferences to focus on elimination of torture, which is very much a hidden crime in Asia. I sincerely hope that there will be progress from this conference. As Basil remarked, we do not want this to be merely an information-sharing session. The final factor that determines the success of what we are discussing today will be seen from our action. And action, because of our limited resources, must be done smartly. So perhaps as I said before, the most important thing is international mechanisms, so that when the state refuses to take action on torture NGOs like AHRC or UN sponsored committees can come in and try to remedy and redress such problems. NGOs must insist that governments comply, and failure to comply must lead to certain sanctions.

Malati Kallapur

I would like to speak only in the context of India, and as to how torture cases can be handled and the barbarisation of police and the military can be looked into. I believe personally that only a human touch can bring any change to the senario. Because often we common people treat our fellow human beings as lesser human beings which leads to resentment that comes out at different points of time in the form of torture

So I would like to suggest that when we don't treat our fellow human beings as human beings it can lead to so many torture and rape cases. In India I believe we have laws to contain cases of torture. The only thing is that we need to implement them properly. When people don't keep a check on all these systems - judiciary, the police and administration - there will be lapses, and it is the common people's duty and right to keep a check on all these systems. Another thing is that India is very prone to communal riots, basically unleashed by politicians. Sometimes also, religious leaders make use of situations and try to divide the people to gain support for themselves. One basic thing we notice after 52 years of independence is that we don't have leaders to mobilise the people to fight for their rights like we had several decades ago.

George Pulikuthiyil

Life is divine and every human being is endowed with divinity. My faith in God requires and enables me to look at and accept every man and woman as an embodiment of God's presence. The divinity in all humans is manifested only when they are free from fear. Any attack or infringement on their inalienable rights to equality, freedom and the inherent divinity of any man or woman, in any form, by whomsoever it may be, will amount to torture. Therefore, every instance of torture is an attack on human dignity and hence a sin. Torture may be mental, physical or psychological or intellectual. Every act of torture, being an actionable offence, should be held liable to be penalised and the damage thereby has to be appropriately compensated. Torture begets torture. It's only the end of a beginning. As members of a civic society, every man or woman, irrespective of his or her status in society, is under obligation to fight or resist torture. Resistance to torture should be viewed as the best form of worship. Those who condone torture should be held as perpetrators of torture. Torture anywhere is violence on humanity everywhere.

Shareen Amber

I personally feel that in the world there prevails a cycle of torture. The reaction to torture in this world is torture. Punishment is not the solution, but building of morals should be our main aim in implementation of this convention. Torture in its initial stages should be deplored and discouraged, and strong campaigns should be started in all countries regarding any small event of torture. We should not wait for something very big to happen and then turn that event into a campaign. The political setup provides loopholes for torture but we should educate people about their rights and the duties of the state. Many people think that the state has no duties, only that the citizens are expected to perform duties, so they should be educated that the state has certain obligations regarding protection of its citizens. Those who inflict torture against their will, only because they receive orders from their officers, should also be perceived as victims of torture. They suffer psychological pain in the form of guilt, but with time they get used to it and feel comfortable while inflicting torture on orders from their officers. Prisons, I conclude, are the centers for torture. We should emphasise improvement of conditions in them. In my homeland in one prison for 25 there are 200 prisoners using two unhygienic toilets. They all cannot lie down at the same time; they decide the time among themselves. Many prisons are like this in Pakistan. I suggest that we should target prisons first to eliminate torture. As this international law is a tool, we should all learn to use it and make the world a better place to live in.

Zaman Khan

I don't have much to add, because this is the story of each and every country of Asia. But in a few words, torture is such a thing that leaves an indelible mark on your personality throughout your life. It destroys psychologically. It destroys one's personality.

Secondly, I think domestic violence is the root cause of torture. It starts with the family. When the husband beats the wife and children, when the women beat the children, that is the basis of torture in the society. When the society tolerates torture then the state institutions follow the pattern and we all accept it. I think we should have a campaign against it at all levels, because if we are able to create awareness against torture then I think we will be able to stop violations of human rights.

And I would like to make brief comments on child labour. In principal we are against child labour and it should be eliminated. It may not be eliminated today, tomorrow, or after five years or ten years, but we are against child labour and we should work for the elimination of child labour. I want to point out that whoever perpetuates torture is not without philosophy. They justify each kind of torture. They justify it, as my friend has pointed out, such as by saying that people lose mental balance in certain circumstances:. Suharto had a philosophy. Those who killed half a million people had a philosophy. Those who commit torture are motivated. So we should make very clear that we are against ALL torture, and cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment, and we must launch a campaign against it and educate the people.

Jeremiah Lishang

Every human is equal, but if you find out that someone has committed a crime then you can arrest and interrogate. However, it should be in the frame of law, and not to destroy the dignity of a person, because all human beings are equal and do not want to see this thing happen. Also God does not want to see this thing happen. If we do this kind of thing it seems that we are against every other human being and against God. According to Christianity, God created humans in His own form. So if we do this kind of thing it is as if we are against the Lord: whether Christian, Buddhist, Muslim or Hindu, none accept the act of torture.

Fr. Krishna Bogati

Yesterday when I heard from our Indonesian friends the horrific detail about what has happened in their country it made me almost cry. It showed to what extent people can go to torture and suppress for the sake of power.

Torture is the most inhuman form of cruelty anyone can go through. Torture is a crime against your fellow human beings. Human beings are God's creation, created in His own image, as the Bible says, hence torture is not only a crime against humanity but also against God.

Torture is basically a game of power. A person who tortures another wants to say to the victim, "I have absolute power over you, I can do what I like to you and you cannot challenge me." I feel that this is the basic idea behind torture.
Recently I visited a prison in Kathmandu where one of our Catholics was lodged inside. And the name of the prison itself is "Khoor", which in Nepali means a dungeon or a pen where animals are kept. Inside, the way people are kept in such a horrific way that it amounts to continuing torture. We do have to start a campaign against some of these prisons - the living conditions in them are anything but humane.

Torture can also be of a psychological nature. A government or even individuals can inflict psychological torture. Torture in whatever form it may be is the most inhuman way of dealing with your fellow human beings.

Rachana Shrestha

I also think that torture is a violation of human rights that breaks down the personality and destroys the identity. In Nepal there are a lot of problems with girls being trafficked, and domestic violence problems. Women suffer very inhumane treatment from the very beginning. I met one girl who ran away from an Indian brothel. She told me her story, which was so terrible. She knew she was in Bombay but she didn't know what road she was staying on because she was locked inside the brothel for 15 years. There is a lot of domestic violence, such as the case of a woman who was accused of being a witch and was forced to eat her own stool. So there is a lot of inhuman treatment in Nepal also, and indeed torture is a violation of human rights.

Nandana Manatunga

We Christians believe that we are created in the image and likeness of God, therefore respect of human beings is the search for God. Thus the denial of basic human needs is also the beginning of torture, because in some instances where we see the inhuman conditions people live in they also amount to the beginnings of torture, both physical and psychological. So basically, to overcome torture is to respect human beings, to know what others feel, to feel the needs of others, to feel their pain.

Ven. Mahagalkadawala Punnasala Thero

From history we learn that since the very beginning there has been torture. I think there are a lot of reasons for this, and one major factor is the greediness for power. Another factor is the need to protect the feudal system. The first story we find in the Buddhist history is that of King Ajansatthu who kills his own father, King Bhimbisara, to get the reins of power. He ordered the soles of his father's feet cut open and salt put into the wounds Also torture is inflicted where the religious authority is threatened. And when people have become desperate, people have been subjected to torture, particularly in times of war.. The general population is mentally tortured because of the war. In the northern part of Sri Lanka people are physically tortured and in the southern part, where there is no war, people are mentally tortured.

The point I made that greediness for power necessitates torture is evident from the situation in my own country. Even during the last general election in October we witnessed the extent to which the people will go to get into power, and how torture is used. Some candidates even tortured Buddhist monks in temples. Some houses of opponents' supporters were burned down. Pain was inflicted on people. So it is my personal opinion that those who are in power use torture to retain power, and especially the security forces and their henchmen use it in the same way.

Suraiya Kamaruzzaman

When the human beings were created by Allah, I do believe that they were given the best human rights by which to live. And the rights were granted to every human being, male and female, without any differences.

Before I looked on torture as somebody committing torture against somebody else, as a person taking the basic rights of others. But in reality I see torture as already a part of our lives, crossing barriers, crossing religious and ethnic traditions, and countries. So I am thinking about what we must do in trying to eliminate torture that I see happening every day in our lives. I look at torture as already a part of a system of life and therefore people do not find it disturbing.

I would like to propose several points in order to eliminate the phenomenon of torture, particularly regarding Aceh. The first thing we need to do is to empower the victims and use a religious approach based on their own beliefs. I find these methods very effective for empowering the victims. For example, I met a man who was confined for ten years and experienced many kinds of torture but he still has hope because he still believes that God is with him. You might not find it correct, but I often find that belief in God gives a big hope for people who are in those kinds of conditions.

The second thing I think we need to do is educating and conscientizing that torture is one way of taking the basic rights of human life. And educating through various methods, like training, broadcasting, using mass media and so on. Through this training and education we must try to make people see the phenomenon of torture as something happening in their own lives, so that people will not just look on torture as something happening outside. It is one way to raise sensitivity on the issue of torture.

We need different methods in presenting the story of torture in the mass media. We don't need to blow up the story of torture itself in the media, but rather the story of the family lives before and after the torture, and what they are feeling and so on, so we hope it will move the sympathy of people.

And the third thing is that we need to change our legal system and urge the government to ratify some international laws, like what we are now discussing here.

I have found this meeting very helpful and I am grateful to be here, to find many friends from different countries and different contexts, yet almost all of us have had similar experiences. It is one way for me to empower myself and to keep my faith to continue our struggle to challenge the phenomenon of torture.

Anna Marsiana

I find people in many different places have tended to become numb and insensitive to the phenomenon of torture, because as my friend mentioned, we find that torture is becoming a part of our lives and therefore it is accepted. But I feel there is also a religious hindrance in our lives. We have inherited so many traditions of violence in our religious traditions. For example, in Christian traditions we find violence is acceptable in solving many problems. We even find in our Bible that God allowed Israel to kill and banish many different nations and races. And we even find that God hates certain races, so it has legitimated our way of thinking, that we can also hate particular races. I think these religious traditions are still deep in our hearts and our spirituality. So we need new interpretations of many religious traditions for us to be able to free ourselves from the psychological effects of these traditions.

Secondly, we have in our religious traditions violence as one way to discipline, so I would very much agree with Mr. Khan, who reminded us of how parents use violence to discipline their children, because for me it is one way of internalising violence in their lives. When they grow up they will look on many forms of torture and violence as ordinary because they also have experienced such in their lives.

Also I agree with our friend from Malaysia that we do need open discussions as a kind of catharsis for people, so that many hidden stories of torture and violence will come out. It will be a way to free ourselves from psychological barriers and make people aware of the phenomenon of torture.

Lastly, I would like to draw your attention to our case. Philip and Basil on the first day mentioned that torture falls under the legal term jus cogens, which means that even if a country did not sign a law the country is bound nonetheless. So I am thinking that Suharto must be brought to trial for the crimes he committed over more than 30 years, but I don't see any effort, and our country just says "this is our internal affair". So I would like this forum to take this case as one of our priorities, to pressure Indonesia for Suharto to be brought to trial, which I believe will have a big impact on the lives of the people and the phenomenon of torture in Indonesia.

Nazaruddin Ibrahim

I see that all your faces are so tense and without smiles, so I would like to start my reflections based on a picture everybody can see on the wall downstairs, of two or three pigs sleeping peacefully with a tiger. The picture attracted me and brought several questions to my mind. How can these pigs sleep peacefully with this tiger? Is it because they do not have any religious traditions? Is it because they do not belong to any particular country, race or caste? Or is it something else? This came to mind because during the three or four days of our meeting here many reflections have come out and I find that we can legitimize others killing and torture because of our religious and other traditions.
Again, I am grateful to be here, to find a connection with other people from other places experiencing similar things which I have experienced, and I hope that this kind of meeting can draw the attention of the international community to the case of torture and help to reduce and eliminate the phenomenon of torture in this world.

Mihindukulasooriya Nilani

I find that we promote torture in our own families. I can give a very small example. If a child is doing something wrong then the parents start beating the child. The child understands, "If I do something wrong, a beating is what I receive." And when they grow older they understand that "If I do something wrong they can beat me." Even among the common people, if you find a robber, when the police take him into custody they also want him assaulted. So our attitude is that if someone does anything wrong, he should be punished, whether regarding political violence or a common crime or something else. So I think that to eliminate torture we should change our own attitudes. And we should understand the psychological side to torture. We have to start from our own homes and our own societies. Otherwise, if we go to talk about torture without talking about our own families and lives this will not succeed.

Priyantha Gamage

Listening to you all, I can't help reminiscing about my own country. I weep for my own country silently. I weep for what it is. I weep for its future. In Sri Lanka torture was documented only by one Englishman, Robert Knox, who put graphical illustrations into his book. Whereas not one Sinhalese person dared to do it, because they took it for granted, he saw the country from an outsider's point of view, so until today we can see what it was.
Even after becoming a democracy we have continued to entertain violence and torture. The precedent was set up by the rulers, the henchmen followed, and today the whole thing has trickled down through the very social fabric to every single aspect of life. So today violence and torture is a way of life in Sri Lanka, whether from homes to the rulers, from domestic violence to election riggings or intimidation of political opponents. We lack the strength to stand together. We stand alone. We fight a lone war.

It is time we came out of our closets to deplore this inhuman activity; it is time to stand together. And as I emphasise in every gathering, I see the need for networking, to share information, to lobby against rulers, to lobby against agencies, to stand up against violations. let's do it in our time, let's not leave space for our kids to say, "We are facing this because our mothers and fathers did nothing." I always take the example of India. Although it has its weaknesses, it has come a long way. I respect the judiciary of India which has come a long way not only because of the lawyers and judges, who are courageous enough to be different, but because of the people, because of social activism; because the lawyers, judges, social workers and activists who worked together. It is time that we got out of this jungle, because in the jungle only the strong survive. It's time to stand together to deplore violence and stand against it.

Saw Kweh Say

What I want to talk about is the feeling on torture in Burma, the country I am from. People are using torture as a tool to do something. Looking at the government side, it uses torture to empower itself and withdraw power from the people. But among the people, torture is used as a tool also, and I experienced this myself. When I was in school, one time we arrested a Burma government agent - and then we tortured him, because we wanted to get information. We understood that this person was very dangerous and important for us and for the village people. So we had to do something to get information from him, and the only way was through torture.

As I understand it, we already have human rights laws to protect people, but torture continues in every country, every community. So I think we need to enforce human rights laws and get a sense of ownership over them. We need to protect these laws and enforce them. In this way we will push the act of torture out of our societies. What I believe is that dignity is inherent in every human being, so if we protect and respect our human dignity I understand that we can also push the act of torture out of society.

Philip Setunga

I would briefly say that my conviction for promoting the UN Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman and Degrading Treatment springs from my conviction that we have our own dignity and that dignity must be protected and safeguarded. And also we must intervene to bring sanity to society. Some areas that we can focus on and where I would like to collaborate with the church leaders, groups and organisations are those that uphold the dignity of man and come forward to defend them and condemn torture. Since no religion would condone torture or violence, we have common ground a common platform for dialogue and common action. Can we stand on that common platform and not only ask for the elimination of torture but also positively promote rights?

There is another area that we can collaborate and which I think is very important, and that is the schools. Increasingly, schools and educational institutions are becoming places of torture. It is not uncommon to see children coming back from school anguished, and sometimes traumatised. So the question is how can we change the educational atmosphere, the teaching systems, so that children discover their dignity and their rights? I think this is an area that we all must focus on.

There are two initiatives that have been adopted by us where your involvement is very much appreciated. The are the Urgent Appeals program and the weekly e-newsletter where we try to focus on areas of human right violations and more specifically on cases of torture. We would like to invite you to respond to our calls for solidarity action often in the form of writing letters. Besides, you may inform us of cases of torture or simply write to us about the initiatives taken by you or by others in promoting rights which can be included in our e-newsletter

Nick Cheesman

I would like to briefly pick up on three themes that people here have already been talking about. One is the psychological effects of torture and how they relate to society. Another is about human dignity, and the last is about how these relate to action for change in society.

Conditions of torture and violence produce a feeling of numbness and desensitisation, as Anna mentioned, during and after the event. But the reasons for this condition may be many and varied. Some may not be religious, but rather defence mechanisms. Victims of torture and violence may protect themselves through detachment. Where torture is prevalent, this feeling may be extrapolated to the social whole as a way of maintaining collective human dignity. Without such defence mechanisms the victimised society comes face to face with atrocities on a daily basis and is collectively dehumanised.
Therefore such feelings, however much they may inhibit action for change, serve a purpose for the victims of torture and the society as a whole. Any action for change must reaffirm, not undermine, the right of the victims to retain their dignity through such psychological defences. It must work with and around these defences, not against them. Both victims of torture and societies immersed in torture must be invigorated, not threatened, by activism. This seems to me to be the greatest challenge.

Basil Fernando

I once wrote a small book called, "The Village at the Mouth of the River". I wrote about the people I lived with as a child. The memory I have of those people is that they were very scared and afraid. They were wonderful people, but still there was an enormous fear lurking in their minds and written in their faces. I think I found myself also scared and afraid. It was not the direct experience of violence that made them afraid. It was some collective memory that must have begun a long time ago.

Torture leaves deep marks on the collective memory of people. Torture is not only about individuals, but the most important aspect of torture is the collective imprint it leaves on the people. Attempts to get over this fear create new types of psychological habits; of confidence and strength. This is all this discussion is about.